| Reply To Topic |
Topic: I want to meet with a bar grader |
| Username: |
|
|
|
| Subject: |
|
: I want to meet with a bar grader |
|
| Message: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Topic Review |  | |
Author: scrivener5 [819] 
 |
| 28 Nov 2009 09:51 AM |
|
| I posted the essay questions from the October 2009 FYLSE California Baby Bar exam (as I remember them) in the "All Law School Topics" section of All4JDS.com. |
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 07:09 PM |
|
Here are Bar Exam Conspiracy Theories:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hzORW6dMU6&feature=related |
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener [21262]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 06:09 PM |
|
I agree with you.
The issue that resonates with me is FRAUD. It would be a disbarment-actionable offense to commit fraud...especially on law students! |
|
|
|
|
Author: Anon [21262]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 06:07 PM |
|
Don't agree with Moquin's analysis. Bar graders are barred attorneys. There's no reason they would not be familiar with The paper Chase, law schools, and take an interest in what the bar review courses are doing or what it is reported they are doing. One naturally pays attention to what goes on in one profession and job. The only part that rang false to me was the use of "her" in reference to a failing examinee. I'm no bar grader, but I would guess the exams are graded by reference to an examinee number only, not a name, so why would s/he know it was a "her" unless s/he is some sort of feminist type who likes to throw in a "her" instead of "him" just out of principle.
As far as the article itself, I hated the know-it-all interviewer - please keep your opinion and "I already know this"'s out of an interview! But otherwise it seemed like good advice, except that I think a photographic memory type may make a lousy lawyer, but could probably pass the bar exam quite easily is s/he can also write with any basic ability whatsoever. |
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 05:57 PM |
|
Just for full-disclosure purposes, I posted this answer and response on another forum. Google "2009 fylse."
|
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 11:54 AM |
|
Hi Mr. Moquin,
In short, your exegesis is simply brilliant! I admire your legal analysis!
That said, I still recommend the article "Interview with a Bar Grader."
Enjoy your holiday!
|
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 09:14 AM |
|
Hi Mr. Moquin,
Wow, that is a lengthy response! Seriously, thanks for responding. I am still reading your post. In the meantime, I would like to point out that, at the outset of the interview, the bar grader admits to being a "fan" of the publication.
I am still reading your post. Thanks again for your response! |
|
|
|
|
Author: Brian Moquin [35]
|
| 27 Nov 2009 03:58 AM |
|
scrivener5: All I had was hearsay. But now that you've asked for evidence, I've re-read the article carefully and I see some circumstantial evidence within it, which I relate below.
As I wrote in my original post, I find it difficult to believe that anyone would make up such a thing and publish it to law students as being CalBar-insider information. I don't know the author, but I do know many of his former students quite well. I thought the article was legitimate until two of his former students told me this past summer, without me asking them, that it was a composite work of the author's own thoughts on the matter. Whether they were told that by the author or they drew that conclusion based on the similarity between the grader's thoughts, style, and words and the author's, I don't know. One person telling me something is easily dismissed; two people who don't know one another telling me exactly the same thing raises some doubts.
So I have now gone through the article to see if there's anything in it that seems strange. Here's what I see:
What are the odds that a grader would say in an interview that they themselves "didn't write rule statements" when they took the exam when that is one of the author's key mantras in his own bar prep program? I guess it's possible, but it strikes me as a bit strange.
How plausible is it that a grader would launch into an exposition about professors and bar review courses, stating, "Now, why do so many professors and bar review courses insist otherwise? Honestly, I do not know. But it is all based on myth." To me, that doesn't sound like a bar grader talking about CalBar, it sounds like a bar tutor talking. His starting that sentence with the word "Now" seems unnaturally pedagogical for a "mere" grader to do. Likewise, why would a grader say, "If you take the time to read the Bar Examiner's essay examination instructions, there is nothing there that even remotely suggests an essay response needs to contain separate statements of law"? The flags for me are the phrases "If you take the time" and "even remotely suggests." It sounds like a bar tutor talking, i.e., someone who is lecturing or trying to affirm their own bar prep methods, not someone just relating information about CalBar's grading process.
Elsewhere, the grader says, "I laugh at the bar review courses that say nothing more than, 'Follow instructions.'" So this grader has an interest in bar review courses, evidently has explored several, and is so interested in them that he actually "laughs" at the ones that don't teach what he's strongly asserting. It seems strange to me for someone who passed on their first attempt to know what other bar review courses advise their students to do -- and I don't know of a single bar prep program that says nothing more than "follow instructions" with respect to the PT. Who is this grader, how is he so knowledgeable about bar prep, and why does he have this condescending attitude -- or any attitude at all -- regarding certain hypothetical bar prep programs?
The grader says, "If you think about it, a holding, without knowing the factual context, is nothing but a holding in a vacuum. You need to demonstrate an ability to use case law, and/or to compare/contrast case law and/or to distinguish case law." Why would a grader who is being interviewed by a bar prep tutor say something like that? These statements go well beyond knowing how to grade essays and into the realm of what one would say if one were a law professor, a bar tutor, or perhaps an academic adviser to the CalBar administration.
The paragraph in which the grader talks about The Paper Chase and how a "photographic memory doesn't get the job done" doesn't strike me as sounding like something that would come from a grader; rather, it sounds like someone who was trying to make a point regarding bar prep. The entire paragraph is didactic. Why would a grader bring up such things, especially when being interviewed by someone who has been teaching bar prep for years? What are the odds that a bar grader would have watched that movie and thought about its implications with respect to bar prep, let alone related them during an interview with a bar tutor? I find that strange.
Is it believable that a current bar grader would say this: "And it isn't a legal-knowledge exam. It is an analysis exam. This is not a regurgitative exam." I like that word "regurgitative," however implausible it is for a bar grader to make such a strong assertion. I've never used that word verbally, and I've never heard anybody say it aloud, but it's so cool that I will be saying it from now on. This grader is cock-sure in everything he writes with respect to the exam, what's important and what isn't, what doesn't work in terms of bar prep, what causes students to fail, and, most importantly, what, apparently without exception across all graders, yields points on the written portion of the exam. This last point contradicts first-hand discussions with former graders that some of my students had this past summer as well as information that former graders have posted on numerous discussion boards. This statement, for example: "Rule statements are worth zero points." It's strange how many of the graded essay answers that I've looked at that contained almost no analysis but an excess of rule statements along with minimal, unexplained conclusions got 55s and 60s -- that's a far cry from zero points.
I find it unlikely that a current bar grader would say the following: "Many candidates have been brainwashed to believe that issue spotting is all that matters. They foolishly believe that all we do is look for the right head notes." Why would a grader know and relate that people believe that all the graders do is look for the right head notes? How would a grader, who obviously didn't go through or adopt the techniques of one of the programs he's referring to since he himself didn't even write any rule statements and the only program I'm aware of that advocates that is the author's, have the apparent industry insight to make such a statement so decisively that he feels no compunction about invoking the word "foolishly"?
The grader says, "What separates us from other jurisdictions is the written portion of the exam." So this grader is knowledgeable about how the California Bar Exam differs from the bar exam in other jurisdictions, yet the grader makes no mention that he himself has ever taken or passed anything except the bar exam in California on his first attempt. Why would anybody who is preparing for the bar exam in California, who lives in the Bay area, who then becomes a CalBar grader, even care about bar exams in other jurisdictions and how they compare to the California Bar Exam, let alone have analyzed them to be able to make an assertion like this? That's something that a bar prep tutor would do, but it strikes me as highly unlikely that any normal bar grader would.
The grader says, "But virtually everyone has the ability to memorize." Here the grader isn't talking about the exam, he's talking about students. Why would a grader talk about the abilities of students? Why would he say, "Which is why so many failing candidates spend 12-14 hours [sic] days in the library memorizing law"? Am I to believe that this person, who was hired as a bar grader, on top of merely knowing how he was trained by CalBar to grade essays and performance tests, also has thought about the implications of that to how people should prepare for the exam, and has done so to such a degree that he's confident enough to say that such study approaches lead to failure? I find that hard to believe.
Prior to finding the article, my own analysis of dozens of graded essays and all of the published answers since 1975 led to me to conclude several of the things stated in the article by this grader. But there's a big difference between drawing one's own conclusions and stating that they come directly from a current, apparently pedagogically-inclined grader who also appears to be a bar prep afficionado. Again, I don't know, and I don't know how I would find out -- I suspect I'll have to wait until a suit for libel is filed against me even though I've been careful to say that I don't know one way or the other. But having read the article again due to your response, I'm now leaning towards believing the hearsay. I hope I'm wrong and the article is legitimate.
Do not read this as an accusation of fraud -- that was never and is not my intention. I only have interest in the content of the article and whether it's true, not its author, and much of what is written in it has been corroborated through my own analysis of the bar exam. Instead, take what I've written as a recommendation to consider swallowing what the article states with a grain of salt.
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 26 Nov 2009 01:36 PM |
|
Happy Thanksgiving Everybody!
Mr. Moquin,
I am very inerested in your evidence. Please provide it for us. |
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 26 Nov 2009 08:10 AM |
|
Here is the "Interview with a Bar Grader"
http://www.clsj1994.com/pdf-issues/May2008.pdf |
|
|
|
|
Author: SCRIVENER5 [21262]
|
| 26 Nov 2009 04:50 AM |
|
Hi Mr. Moquin,
Could you cite some support for your allegations? Being that the "Interview with a Bar Grader" appeared in a journal distributed to law students, any proof of fraud would be highly relevant. If you have the goods, then produce them. |
|
|
|
|
Author: 58star [2]
|
| 26 Nov 2009 03:37 AM |
|
This is encouraging and it is what I need. Other than doing the BarPassers questions, how did you study differently? Where working full/part time? Any suggestion would be helpful.
Congrats |
|
|
|
|
Author: Brian Moquin [35]
|
| 25 Nov 2009 07:09 PM |
|
Word on the virtual street is that the "interview with a bar grader" cited above is fictional and what it purports should not be trusted. I have not confirmed whether or not it's real (and I have trouble believing anyone would put out something like that if it wasn't), but that's what several reliable sources have told me.
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
Author: mirchi5 [21262]
|
| 25 Nov 2009 04:29 AM |
|
| If you have questions or need advice, email me at mirchi5@yahoo.com |
|
|
|
|
Author: mirchi5 [21262]
|
| 25 Nov 2009 04:27 AM |
|
Hey, my tutor was an ex bar grader, he's really good at giving you critical feedback on essays.
http://www.barexam101.com/
he's recommended http://www.barexam101.com/
Good luck the bar sucks! |
|
|
|
|
Author: 2nd timer [21262]
|
| 25 Nov 2009 02:10 AM |
|
Posted By on 24 Nov 2009 10:32 PM
Hi OP. As a first-time bar taker this coming Feb, I'm really anxious to know if I'll end up being like you or the other folks who fail 2+ times. Do you have ANY objective reasons for why you think you perform so poorly? Do you have problems remembering the law, spotting the issues, or is it all just writing style issues? Did you have trouble passing exams in law school?
All of these are questions I'd like to know the answer to, because it's frankly incomprehensible to me as to anyone who passed law school could be incapable of passing the bar exam, which is arguably just a compilation of easy law school exams (for a given subject in isolation).
I used to think just like you until I got this message twice:
"the information you have entered does NOT match a name of the pass list."
why?
my numbers did not add up to the winning lottery of 1440. BOTH times came less than a few points a way.
decent MBE score both times.
sitting out feb 10.
you don't pass your first time, you miss your chance -- trust me!
|
|
|
|
|
Author: Bjorn [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 10:32 PM |
|
Hi OP. As a first-time bar taker this coming Feb, I'm really anxious to know if I'll end up being like you or the other folks who fail 2+ times. Do you have ANY objective reasons for why you think you perform so poorly? Do you have problems remembering the law, spotting the issues, or is it all just writing style issues? Did you have trouble passing exams in law school?
All of these are questions I'd like to know the answer to, because it's frankly incomprehensible to me as to anyone who passed law school could be incapable of passing the bar exam, which is arguably just a compilation of easy law school exams (for a given subject in isolation). |
|
|
|
|
Author: scrivener5 [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 10:28 PM |
|
Hi Friends,
Here is a great link. An interview with a bar grader:
http://www.clsj.com/pdf-issues/May2008.pdf
Please pray for your brothers and sisters still awaiting the results from the October 2009 FYLSE.
Peace! |
|
|
|
|
Author: anon [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 09:51 PM |
|
Posted By on 24 Nov 2009 09:09 PM
I went from 1350 last July to PASS this July ... i jumped at least 90+ points from one exam to another (didnt take Feb) ... I hope this inspires people ... I never took a tutorial, I just got the materials and studied like crazy .... i took BarPassers this time and did as many MBEs as possible .... good luck
congrads! thanks for sharing! |
|
|
|
|
Author: Repeater [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 09:09 PM |
|
| I went from 1350 last July to PASS this July ... i jumped at least 90+ points from one exam to another (didnt take Feb) ... I hope this inspires people ... I never took a tutorial, I just got the materials and studied like crazy .... i took BarPassers this time and did as many MBEs as possible .... good luck |
|
|
|
|
Author: ... [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 07:53 PM |
|
Posted By on 24 Nov 2009 05:24 PM
Posted By on 24 Nov 2009 03:28 PM
My results have been consistently close the multiple times I took the CBX. They have ranged between -10 points and -60 points from passing, and the PTs grades have stayed the same. I felt that I did my best in the last exam and cannot think of any way of improving my method. I'm afraid it would be the same even next time. I do not have any job or money now, but will not give up on the bar. Since I cannot afford a tutorial, I want about an hour meeting with a confirmed bar grader whom I'll pay to answer some of my pressing questions. I am eager to understand what I am doing wrong. Just a meeting. I will be willing to meet in the Los Angeles, orange couny or Inland Empire area. Please contact me at puregoodness6-at-yahoo.com
same thing has been happening to me. They butchered my essays this second time. They robbed me 25 points from feb 09. I just came to believe that these people HATE repeaters. One look at the statistics proves my theory. 22% pass rate? come one we we are NOT stupid. AND YES, you will fail your 3rd time, 4th time, 5th etc.
I know the same will happen to me so I"M just going to a different state.
They can keep all the attorney jobs they have for their already unemployed attorneys. THIS ADMINSTRATION IS NOT FAIR. NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!
they have no idea that you're a repeater when theyre grading your essay. I hope the OP continues to stick with it and I'm sure he/she will eventually pass. I passed this July on my first try and I truly believe that it's because I wouldn't let the test beat me--I studied hard with that mentality. If you are already willing to quit and move to another state, then what makes you think you'll pass any other exam? What if that test is hard too...are you just going to move to another jurisdiction? Don't mean too come off as a dick, but I don't think you have the right mentality. However, I wish you the best of luck in whatever path you choose to take. |
|
|
|
|
Author: cal bar taker [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 05:24 PM |
|
Posted By on 24 Nov 2009 03:28 PM
My results have been consistently close the multiple times I took the CBX. They have ranged between -10 points and -60 points from passing, and the PTs grades have stayed the same. I felt that I did my best in the last exam and cannot think of any way of improving my method. I'm afraid it would be the same even next time. I do not have any job or money now, but will not give up on the bar. Since I cannot afford a tutorial, I want about an hour meeting with a confirmed bar grader whom I'll pay to answer some of my pressing questions. I am eager to understand what I am doing wrong. Just a meeting. I will be willing to meet in the Los Angeles, orange couny or Inland Empire area. Please contact me at puregoodness6-at-yahoo.com
same thing has been happening to me. They butchered my essays this second time. They robbed me 25 points from feb 09. I just came to believe that these people HATE repeaters. One look at the statistics proves my theory. 22% pass rate? come one we we are NOT stupid. AND YES, you will fail your 3rd time, 4th time, 5th etc.
I know the same will happen to me so I"M just going to a different state.
They can keep all the attorney jobs they have for their already unemployed attorneys. THIS ADMINSTRATION IS NOT FAIR. NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
Author: good luck [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 04:10 PM |
|
| sorry, can't help you with meeting one, but don't give up and best of luck the next time. |
|
|
|
|
Author: HelpPlease [21262]
|
| 24 Nov 2009 03:28 PM |
|
| My results have been consistently close the multiple times I took the CBX. They have ranged between -10 points and -60 points from passing, and the PTs grades have stayed the same. I felt that I did my best in the last exam and cannot think of any way of improving my method. I'm afraid it would be the same even next time. I do not have any job or money now, but will not give up on the bar. Since I cannot afford a tutorial, I want about an hour meeting with a confirmed bar grader whom I'll pay to answer some of my pressing questions. I am eager to understand what I am doing wrong. Just a meeting. I will be willing to meet in the Los Angeles, orange couny or Inland Empire area. Please contact me at puregoodness6-at-yahoo.com |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Active Forums 4.1
|
 |
|
Books for Sale
|
|
|
|
Title: 2009 Complete Set (New Blue Cover Edition) + Video + Outlines and Flash Cards
Price: $650.00
State: Illinois
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Title: 2008-2009 NY Micromash Materials - Complete Set
Price: $450.00
State: VA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Title: Barbri etc
Price: $1.00
State: CA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Title: AUDIO LECTURES Wills/ Trusts CRIM LAW< CRIM PROC< PROF RESP
Price: $1.00
State: CA
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Title: CALIFORNIA BAR EXAM - All OUTLINES
Price: $30.00
State: California
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Click here for more..
|
|
|
|
|